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Why Yu-Gi-Oh became shit after 5D's
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It's literally the same thing after 5D's. Some weird dude with a father complex is doing a tournament with some flashy moderator, there is a strange gimmick (Just look at that new Show-Stuff that they are pulling with the AR) and after that it gets super natural with some enemies from another effing dimension. In the newer one it literally is every dimension where they prefer a certain kind of summoning. I can't watch anything past 5D's anymore, it just doesn't have the same excitement anymore, because it is literally just the same bullshit.
Yu-Gi-Oh became trash after the original manga finished its storyline for me. The animes have existed not for the story, but for the card game it created, so pretty much all the anime is trash. You know it's bad when even Takahashi is begging for it to end and it never does. Edit: I will agree that the overall aesthetic beyond 5D's is laughable. I've never seen character designs that miss the point to Takahashi's unique style more-so than Arc V and Zexal.
(edited by TogoSystem)
Ruka_Maaka
Thread Creator
#3

Yu-Gi-Oh became trash after the original manga finished its storyline for me. The animes have existed not for the story, but for the card game it created, so pretty much all the anime is trash. You know it's bad when even Takahashi is begging for it to end and it never does. Well, of course it's one of many anime that started because of the creators other products. Digimon was originally made so that they can advertise the game and on the reverse for Pokemon (I believe) they made the games for the anime and would have ended with just two generations. Yet, most of these anime gave most people some good time until everything became, well, bullshit, I am one of the persons that really enjoyed Yu-Gi-Oh and think the first 3 stories weren't bullshit. But it is your opinion and I gotta respect that
Yeah, the newer anime kinda turns me off as well. It just doesn't seem like my cup of tea, although I've heard some of the newer stuff is interesting. Looking back, the 5Ds and before anime itself is kinda repetitive as well, although I enjoyed its plot. It's kind of hard to describe it for me, really. Perhaps it's just the joy of watching it as a kid. You don't really have an in-depth understanding of game mechanics, and you don't really care about the thing having a deep plot, but you become invested in what's on-screen and root for the heroes to make a clever move or special draw to win. Perhaps that's what makes the series as a whole nostalgic to me. But I'm kind of rambling rn
(edited by PrimPrim)
Ruka_Maaka
Thread Creator
#5

Yeah, the newer anime kinda turns me off as well. It just doesn't seem like my cup of tea, although I've heard some of the newer stuff is interesting. Looking back, the 5Ds and before anime itself is kinda repetitive as well, although I enjoyed its plot. It's kind of hard to describe it for me, really. Perhaps it's just the joy of watching it as a kid. You don't really have an in-depth understanding of game mechanics, and you don't really care about the thing having a deep plot, but you become invested in what's on-screen and root for the heroes to make a clever move or special draw to win. Perhaps that's what makes the series as a whole nostalgic to me. But I'm kind of rambling rn The problem is, the creators aren't creative enough to create new plot cores (That's what I call what makes the overall plot). All they care about is how to make a story that sells and further advertising their products. Btw, isn't the cardgame by Konami who made some bullshit with the MGS creator?
Konami only existed as long as it did because of Kojima (MGS) and the Yu-Gi-Oh games. In any case, they don't want to do anything else. They just want to keep selling the card game. If you only know the original manga/anime, if you watch any new anime with the new card rules, you will such a headache immediately. Like the horrendous Pokemon anime, as long as the game it's based on remains strong, anime adaptations will never cease. They're literal products, not stories.
Ruka_Maaka
Thread Creator
#7

They're literal products, not stories. This statement has a severe problem. Everything that is sold is literally just a product. Take for example Persona. The games are just products, but they each contain a story that makes the product attractive. If you translate this into Yu-Gi-Oh, ut is just a product in form of an anime, but people will still watch it for it's, well, not good story and it is attractive to them. Its still the quote-on-quote story that sells it.
Of course, but I'm saying the Yu-Gi-Oh animes don't keep coming because the story, characters, setting, etc are so memorable. But because it promotes more card sales. If you read the original manga to the first anime (especially later on), it becomes apparent that while the original material was focused on telling a story, the anime is most interested in showing more cards. My point was, they're not putting much effort into anything else but marketing the cards, ie, it's a product first, a story second.
(edited by TogoSystem)
Ruka_Maaka
Thread Creator
#9

Of course, but I'm saying the Yu-Gi-Oh animes don't keep coming because the story, characters, setting, etc are so memorable. But because it promotes more card sales. If you read the original manga to the first anime (especially later on), it becomes apparent that while the original material was focused on telling a story, the anime is most interested in showing more cards. My point was, they're not putting much effort into anything else but marketing the cards, ie, it's a product first, a story second. I get your point, but atleast in the animes beginnings I had the feeling that product AND story were first. But it might also be me being too nostalgic aswell. Either way, it is sad to see people doing stuff only for money.
Konami only existed as long as it did because of Kojima (MGS) and the Yu-Gi-Oh games. In any case, they don't want to do anything else. They just want to keep selling the card game. If you only know the original manga/anime, if you watch any new anime with the new card rules, you will such a headache immediately. Like the horrendous Pokemon anime, as long as the game it's based on remains strong, anime adaptations will never cease. They're literal products, not stories. And once again, I'm not sure why something primarily being a product automatically makes it bad. Hell, I'm pretty sure a pretty decent portion of kids anime are primarily products, so that must mean all those are automatically bad too. Don't get me wrong, zeal is objective dog shit and Arc-V and 5D's turn to garbage after their first arcs, but saying they're bad because they're meant to sell you stuff just seems...shortsighted I guess?
And once again, I'm not sure why something primarily being a product automatically makes it bad. Hell, I'm pretty sure a pretty decent portion of kids anime are primarily products, so that must mean all those are automatically bad too. Don't get me wrong, zeal is objective dog shit and Arc-V and 5D's turn to garbage after their first arcs, but saying they're bad because they're meant to sell you stuff just seems...shortsighted I guess? When you put it as your blatant primary focus, then it becomes a lot more of a problem. Anyone can balance business with art, but you have to at least care about the latter somewhat. I really think no one behind the animes actually cares about anything but profit. Even if I'm mistaken, I've looked into everything past the original, and like the steadily worsening character designs, the plotlines are among some of the most convoluted garbage I have ever seen. Profit or not, the people in charge of the franchise now have no idea what made the original popular, I feel.
(edited by TogoSystem)
Things got crap after Dual Monsters imo. *gen wunner* I watched some Zexal though, it wasn't bad.
(edited by AdachiImouto)
" I really think no one behind the anime actually cares about anything but profits." And why is that? To bring up 5D's, it's just as much as advertisement at the beginning as it is at the end, yet the Dark Signer arc is regularly praised as one of if not the best arcs to come out of the Yu-Gi-Oh franchise as well as just a pretty good anime arc in general. Same goes for Arc-V's standard arc. Hell even Pokemon since I never got around to replying to that thread. XY/&Z is considered by pretty much everyone to be the best season of the Pokemon anime by far, and it's still a 20 something minute commercial.
" I really think no one behind the anime actually cares about anything but profits." And why is that? To bring up 5D's, it's just as much as advertisement at the beginning as it is at the end, yet the Dark Signer arc is regularly praised as one of if not the best arcs to come out of the Yu-Gi-Oh franchise as well as just a pretty good anime arc in general. Same goes for Arc-V's standard arc. Hell even Pokemon since I never got around to replying to that thread. XY/&Z is considered by pretty much everyone to be the best season of the Pokemon anime by far, and it's still a 20 something minute commercial. I think the Pokemon anime is one of the worst animes around too. There's a reason why, despite having virtually no story, it still goes on forever: $$$$$ The games are still popular and, like Yu-Gi-Oh, as long as those elements remain, both of them will never stop in anime form. You seem to think that something that exists for profit has to be soulless; obviously sometimes they have fun with it, and if you can find enjoyment in that, props to you, but to me I only see a lot of unnecessary and terrible crap.
(edited by TogoSystem)
"You seem to think that something that exists for profit has to be soulless" No, that's actually what I'm arguing against. Yes, they're primarily products, but so what? A lot of people still consider them good.
"You seem to think that something that exists for profit has to be soulless" No, that's actually what I'm arguing against. Yes, they're primarily products, but so what? A lot of people still consider them good. I wish I could as well, but I'm past that now. I can tell pretty quick when that's the case and I lose interest immediately. Current Yu-Gi-Oh, I feel, is one of those cases.
(edited by TogoSystem)
Going on the track of these things as making money: usually, stuff like this is meant to sell toys. For example, the Transformers cartoon is meant to sell the action figures, and Beyblade is meant to sell those spinning tops. However, it's all up to the writers whether or not they make something with effort and heart. For example, the quality of the Pokémon B/W anime is eh to most, while the XYZ season as said before is much better to many. They're not necessarily worthless or unnecessary, although if the creators don't try to make something out of it, it's purely a commercial, not something that can stand on its own two feet.
And that's fine.
@Ruka_Maaka I am stepping in to say I enjoy the series all together no matter the quality of each show. Like charecters or plot or a reason, I enjoy it all together NO MATTER WHAT! I just finished yugioh ZEXAL and I enjoyed it. I am almost done watching ARC V I am enjoying it. No matter what. Yugioh is a thing to me
5D's was shit after the Dark Signers arc. GX is only good if you take out the filler, and that's pretty much half the series. DM had stupid amounts of filler too, and wasn't nearly as good as some people say it was. Zexal is good if you remove the filler, Arc-V stops being good by the time you ask yourself "When is the Synchro Arc gonna end?", as for Vrains... I'm placing my bets on 2 more clipshows before 2018. What about you?
For DM, is only alright until the last arc where it becomes actually good. 5D's is indeed shit after the Dark Signer arc, and I'm still salty about Carly. Zexal is pure dog feces. Standard was was amazing. Synchro is a garbage year long filler arc/Jack Atlus wank fest. XYZ felt like it was trying to pick up the slack, but it just fell flat and was rushed to hell. Fusion was just a hot ass mess. Still need to go back and watch GX from start to finish.
(edited by Revali_Fudo)
Ene
#22

Some of the later series are actually pretty good. The main three as in the original, gx, and 5ds are the most genre creating and structured out of the rest. However, Zexal is good in its own right once you looks past the odd design choices and kind of follow along. I feel zexal carries the most tropes reminiscent of the original era and manages to revamp them into something really enjoyable. Also zexal does get serious and by season 3 the characters have excellent development enough to make you cheer them on. The ending of zexal is especially heart breaking and if you want a spoiler just look up kaito and moon on youtube. Arc v was really bad in that it tried too hard to be a special anniversary deal. It had potential but that was shove aside for fans ermine or old characters and rehashing old tropes in a boring manner. The story is also pretty bad and the characters kind of don't get much with all the special apperances. Vrains as a series is especially promising so far and it's actually really good in its first season. It has a similar dark tone to 5ds but has managed other fix a few glaring issues of it predecessor in only 20 episodes. Still too early to tell what might happen but people should at least give it a chance for good story and music.
(edited by Ene)
Vrains as a series is especially promising so far and it's actually really good in its first season. It has a similar dark tone to 5ds but has managed other fix a few glaring issues of it predecessor in only 20 episodes. Still too early to tell what might happen but people should at least give it a chance for good story and music. There's yet ANOTHER one? Remember when Takahashi begged for 5D's to be the final Yu-Gi-Oh series? Pfft, to hell with that, 3 more series later.
(edited by TogoSystem)
Ene
#24

Also this whole elitist attitude toward the original really annoys me since it can be found in any popular franchise. Yes the original will always be objectively good since it started everything off and yes the original creator was behind it in yugiohs case. But it's unfair to say the rest is terrible just because it is made to market a popular product. What I'm trying to say is so what if the anime are made to market the game. Most popular franchises are done like that which is why they still thrive today. Additionally, people get enjoyment from the spinoffs even if they are market material. It saddening to see the spinoffs get struck at when people still enjoy them and feel a sense of nostalgia from it. While you may not have enjoyed the spinoffs others still have and shouldn't that make any elitist happy. That other people enjoy their same series even if it's from a different medium. This is what makes they storit's good since they are able to act as a gateway for fans while maintaining a generational bridge between ages. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but you shouldn't shit on stuff based on its reason for creation or the fact that it's not original. If ya gave an actual reason as to why the story is bad that would help but all I see is the usual complaints on the spinoffs not being the original.
All I said was my surprise on it continuing, despite the original creator also wanting it to end 3 series ago. I shouldn't have to explain why later series (or even the first series) are bad if you know literally anything at all about story structure and writing. You ravenous fans will like and then defend anything regardless of actual quality so long as it has the "Yu-Gi-Oh" label on it.
(edited by TogoSystem)
I don't think Ene was talking to you specifically, Togo.
Ene
#27

I wasn't but if Togo believes I was addressing him then cool. It's called speaking in general terms.
(edited by Ene)
The way Ene said those things sounds like it could apply to Fudo's hatred of Zexal.
Ever thought of watching it before calling it shit?
The way Ene said those things sounds like it could apply to Fudo's hatred of Zexal. My retort remains relevant, regardless.
Kalin, please, don't start talking about this.
Ene
#32

Togo have you ever watched the rest of the spinoffs before resorting to calling us ravenous fans? I agree with Kalin that watching before judging is a must.
As much as I could stand before I had to stop. That's most of then until this new one. Before you ask why: youth, dumb friends, etc. Convoluted doesn't begin to describe almost every single one. It's nearly unbelievable how they try and fail the whole mixing cards with mystism aspect. If you can actually defend that kind of trash, then you are way less critical about writing than I am. Honestly, after reading the original manga (which isn't great by any means, but it at least has internal logic and a story beyond cards) I realized even the original anime was mediocre. To be honest, I only see pandering and greed when it comes to all Yu-Gi-Oh anime, and I fully sympathize with Takahashi as well in them needing to end. But if you find enjoyment in them somehow, fine. I, however, cannot in my right mind imagine defending them at all.
(edited by TogoSystem)
All I said was my surprise on it continuing, despite the original creator also wanting it to end 3 series ago. I shouldn't have to explain why later series (or even the first series) are bad if you know literally anything at all about story structure and writing. You ravenous fans will like and then defend anything regardless of actual quality so long as it has the "Yu-Gi-Oh" label on it. Despite the fact that I constantly refer to Zexal as an abomination and shit on just about everything from 5D's and Arc-V after their first arcs.
Ene
#35

If you believe I lack critical thought towards writing then fine so be it. However, thing is that the yugioh franchise as a whole is not meant to pander to intellectuals like you. Not to say it's dumb kiddie fun, but the whole point of the franchise is meant to be a good time for everyone. This is an anime on card games we are talking about so if your looking for a Psycho Pass or Code Geass plot here then sorry dude but you have to go look somewhere else. But, as a classic shounen game anime the whole yugioh franchise often goes above and beyond introducing new tropes and having a great focus on character development. Sure the story may have plot holes at certain points, but the points they do hit often have interesting concepts. Take Zexal for instance ... Many people disregard it as the worst out of the entire franchise due to the lighter tone and certain design choices. Yet this series deals with the concept of death and coping with it through various means. This is the yugioh spin off that truly makes death a permanent fixture in the game adding more relevance to the character relationships along the way. Now most people might not get this from zexal and that is fine since we all have different opinions. Yet as long as they can enjoy Zexal for what it is then it makes the story worth having as a from of writing and certainly gives it a reason for existing. You can call it trash all you want, but it's pretty arrogant to think that your opinion trumps the experience of newer fans that just got into the franchise through zexal or older fans like me that watched the entirety of it. Like fine dude keep your critical writing and take it somewhere else along with those ideas of pandering and greed. I'll just keep enjoying the franchise from what I get from it as well as the community it has built.
What she said. Also Togo hating fun as usual.
This is an anime on card games we are talking about so if your looking for a Psycho Pass or Code Geass plot here then sorry dude but you have to go look somewhere else. But, as a classic shounen game anime the whole yugioh franchise often goes above and beyond introducing new tropes and having a great focus on character development. The fact you think something awful like Code Geass embodies 'critical thinking' or good writing kinda proves how opposite our story sensibilies are. I'll end with this: Yu-Gi-Oh is a goofy and fun concept in general, but I think there should be limits. I have them when it comes to such stories, anyway. It should never get into mythical dragons or dimension hopping. Ties between the cards and ancient Egypt at least made sense in the original series.
(edited by TogoSystem)
Ene
#38

I never said that code geass or psycho pass embody critical thinking. I simply mentioned them since they are common examples of the complex plot structure that certain people often seek. Can you seriously stop dragging out assumptions from my words it gets kind of annoying. If you really want to prove me wrong or at least set up a defense then I expect some effort put into your counters. It's lazy to twist my words instead of actually addressing them. Also dude i'm pretty happy my story sensibilities are different from yours so thanks. I'll just keep enjoying my franchises and you enjoy yours. A final question I wish to pose ... Why shouldn't it go into mythical dragons or dimension hopping. Please enlighten me since as far as I know there are not that many restrictions in fictional story telling. Any such restrictions often apply only to structure and not content so writers have no need to restrain themselves when it comes to ideas.
(edited by Ene)
That's fine by me too. But this is a Yu-Gi-Oh topic. Good discussion, at least.
A final question I wish to pose ... Why shouldn't it go into mythical dragons or dimension hopping. Please enlighten me since as far as I know there are not that many restrictions in fictional story telling. Any such restrictions often apply only to structure and not content so writers have no need to restrain themselves when it comes to ideas. The problem is they try to set all these spinoffs in the same universe as the original, at least from what I know. Where the card game already had ties to Egypt... But now it has ties to LITERALLY EVERY OTHER MYTHICAL ASPECT OF THE WORLD, a freaking card game?? That is insanely dumb. They could just reboot it every time, keeping the card aspect, but like the original, mixing in their own unique weird magic stuff. If they do this now, then good, but it's only recent that it started from what I know. But they don't do that for a big reason, and a cardinal sin of writing in my opinion: fan service.
there was a discussion here? Weird, looked like you were having totally different conversations, but whatever. Personally, I've always disliked the overly-silly parts of Yugioh, not for being silly, but because they take themselves so seriously while doing so, and I just can't. But i can see others enjoying themselves regardless, and some of the memes are pretty great. So I'll just keep my current perspective of enjoying some Out of Context screenshots and laughing at the thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTd1zAcSqSE That fact that Yugioh takes its ridiculous ass premise so seriously is one of the things I both love and hate about the franchise.
Also, interesting concepts don't excuse plot holes. You can write a story with deep interesting concepts and also not have plot holes. Takes quite a bit of effort though. The fact this is your excuse proves to me you force yourself to like it, only because it's a favorite brand. This is a sentiment I do not share. Defend them for being fun, but I will debate you all night if you try and say there is good writing in any of them.
(edited by TogoSystem)
Ene
#44

The original three are explicitly connected and the rest starting from Zexal are more separate in universe. As for the original three having different mythological aspects that is actually explained through concepts of the original series. GX: Got Greek/Egyptian - It works since it is made clear that most of it is in the duel spirit world and the many dimensions of it 5ds: Nazca Lines- Works since once again it adds to the existing concept of the duel spirit world Also do you realize how long human history is and how spread out human civilizations are among it? Answer is long and spread out enough that all three mythological aspects can coexist within the same universe and still make plausible sense. Akin to how vikings, samurai, and knights managed to overlap in the same time within human history. As for the other spinoff they are directly stated to have little connection to the world of the original three. The split off occurs after the 5ds era with the introduction of differing timelines and there is actually a cohesive timeline out there officially released in a book. Anyway even if these explanations didn't apply the franchise would still be justified in using so many cultural myths. Fact is, the yugioh franchise is a work of fiction allowing for such leeway and to go after it for this is rediculous since most existing works of fiction have done the same.
You're stretching to make sense of how convoluted it all is. Just like the writers. This is definitely not a series you should take too seriously in that regard, because nothing will make any sense if you obsess that hard. Thing is, I don't particularly care for these types of stories.
(edited by TogoSystem)
Ene
#46

Togo have you ever heard the phrase that assumptions make an ass out of me and you. For better discussion it would help if you stopped making these immature assumptions on me. Anyway there is no such things as a cardinal sin of writing unless it involves basic structure and even then writing structure evolves with time. To call fan service a sin is an insult to some of the basis that modern writing comes from. Many highly praised modern works today count as fan service toward many older works that were fan service to the worlds first writings. To say fan service is a sin is just plain silly since this same fan service has probably given you most of the writings you study today. Hell all the classical myths we learn are actually fan service tributes to the original heroism works of Gilgamesh the first hero. Simply put nothing in the modern era is an "original" work which is not a bad thing, but to insult or shun fan service is to do a disservice to writing history. And yes you can write a story without plot holes. It is possible and has been done, but even if a work falls sort of that you shouldn't tear it apart on that basis. Many good stories have plot holes and it is rare to find that perfect work with not a single logic flaw. You are judging the yugioh franchise on a standard of writing that is not even present in many works of Charles Dickens, Tolstoy, and Fitzgerald.
Ene
#47

Togo seriously just pick up a history book and open up the chapters on basic mythology. Upon doing so you would notice that many feed into each other and many have existed at the same time. It's not even the tiniest bit of logic thinning to say that each can exist in the same fictional universe. We basically have this whole deal going on in the real world minus the amazing card games that were already highly fantastical in the original series. I would recommend that you take off those elitist goggles of yours as you do so. May help in analyzing the legitimacy of all these coexisting myths and there influence on a fictional plot.
(edited by Ene)
I'm calling it as I see it. You're stretching to make sense of them because, Yu-Gi-Oh, you want to like them. You've not convinced me otherwise. You're going full straw man debate now. "HISTORY DOES IT, SO THAT EXCEMPTS YUGIOH TOO!" Not biting, sorry. And yes, most fiction has inconsistenies, nor does that make them bad. I have plenty of things I like that fall in that regard too. Thing is, good writing masks errors that you might not notice until many more times in. Your attention is drawn elsewhere. So maybe Yu-Gi-Oh works this way for you, but ALL I could see was nonsense because I didn't care about anything else, due to how poorly everything was set up. To you, maybe. But I've seen too many examples of things I have loved being butchered later on due to outside influences seeping into the story, ie, fan service. As a writer myself, I personally do consider it THE cardinal sin of writing. You don't have to agree, but I've come to that rationale for a good reason.
(edited by TogoSystem)
Well a story doesn't necessarily need to be good to be enjoyed. Just look at Nardo. It's a hell of a lot worse than Yugioh, yet it's still popular. Then there's stuff like Kingdom Hearts which you need to be damn near transcendent to make any sense out of, yet people love it. Outside of the Dark Signer Arc and Standard, no one thinks Yugioh is a particularly well written series, but for a kid's show about children's trading cards that doesn't even realize it's a show about children's trading cards, it's usually competent enough to be enjoyable. And even if it's not, the actual card game aspect is still usually good enough to keep people watching. And you seriously need to stop with the "you want to like it" crap.
(edited by Revali_Fudo)
Ene
#50

Well as a writer myself I consider fan service a valid part of the writing experience and a necessary one for it's current status in the world today. Next, there is no such thing as good writing since writing is a subjective form of art. Also that whole argument you give of good writing masking errors is as bad as having open errors from the start. I really don't seek to break your opinion down or destroy any conception you hold on the yugioh franchise in general. I simply wish to provide an active dialogue on certain points you have provided since it's unfair to call something trash without giving a why. So yes I get yugioh does not work for you, but for me it does and I am using my experience of it as well as outside knowledge to defend it. You can call my reasoning stretched from the start or a product of nostalgia, but I still stand firm in it. I honestly believe the yugioh spinoffs are worth a try since they have the potential to strike at the heart and that is what truly counts when all is said and done about writing.
It is possible to include fanservice well, I'll agree. And if you can actually pull it off, more power to you. Also, you're right it may be a necessity to include, and in that case I can agree something like Arc V implemented it, at least, in an interesting way. I didn't think it was done very well, personally, but as you said, still a neat concept overall. But personally, I'd always rather exclude it entirely. And yeah, I get your point now, and I hope you get mine. We'll just have to agree to disagree about Yu-Gi-Oh, mostly.
(edited by TogoSystem)
Ene
#52

Indeed it looks like yugioh will have to be the point which we contest. It was awesome having such an interesting discussion and I will concede one thing. Arc V implemented fanservice fully to the point where it destroyed the spinoff. Basically serving as a lesson on how fan service when used incorrectly cab lay waste to the story of a series.
I feel the same, actually. We might disagree on Yu-Gi-Oh, but now I'm curious about other things you like. I'd like to share more and get your perspective on other things. I hope we can do that sometime.
(edited by TogoSystem)
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